Moti wrote on 09-Jun-1999
Hello.
first , your page is great.

i am moti form israel.
i always attract to east music , but here in israel its not developing... we use 12 tone scale...

so... if u have any more info about qurter-tone scale of even 1/8(if its  exist)... pls send me....

we have few information here..

tnx
and
bye

i buy voilin and try to study myself(i have no money for teacher.. 8)) (btw:im programmer too)


Moti wrote again on 22-Jul-1999

Tnx.
and , i have some question , pls.
i know that turkish music involve 1/8 tone(!) in their scales , do the egypt music involve it too?

(i play violin, if u listen carfully , u see that there is 2 ways to play biat ,
1. 3/4 , 3/4 , 1, ...
2. 5/8 . 7/8, 1 ....)


I replied on 24-Jul-1999

Hi Moti,
I never heard of 1/8 tones in our Egyptian music. But the phenomenon could have its roots from the times of the Natural Scales (I wrote about these in my Web Pages. Have you read them yet?). Back then, there were indeed two ways of playing Bayati, and they were close to what you referred to. Only, in our contemporary music, we never use them any more, at least not officially. Although I know that many older violinists insist on mentioning a "sinking sikah" (possibly your 5/8), but also a "detached sikah" which means a slightly raised sikah. But none of them can decide on any exact measurements.

Keep asking questions. Our minds live by these.

cHi

tnx u for answer my question.

i read your article about colors and tetracords that very interesting i alwayz asked myself why i happy with ajam and feel sad with sava(i very like that makam) feel x with nahawand and feel y with kurd i thought that there is no answer to that question , i tought it something in sole and with structure of makams, it seem that your theory give answer for that interesting question!

btw:did u know? "sava" in persian mean the quiet wind of the early morning (before the sun came out,between light and dark) that some of the feeling of that makam.

tnx and bye
u do great work.


Moti wrote again on 04-Aug-1999

Hi , its moti

i want to play ud , but i dont know nothing about kinds,sizes.. do u can please , give me some advices about buying?
do u know good place i can buy from?

tnx


I replied on 07-Aug-1999

Dear Moti,
I'm not really an expert on `uds, as my main instrument has always been the naï. But I can tell you a few important points.

The different models, or sizes, on the market do NOT differ at all as to the sound; what's important is the kind of wood, although I'm sorry I don't know the names. Usually, the more expensive models are made of better woods. Also, don't pay attention to the ornamentation; too much of it can muffle the sounding action of the box. And wooden windows are better than cheap, plastic ones for the same reason.

Do examine the resonating box for any fissures. Just tap all over it with the back of your middle finger as you inspect it carefully.

Usually, older instruments are very good but very expensive, too. Their wood is drier, so they sound more fully. The chords are of great importance, too. Here in Egypt, most people get a French set of chords (they are made in Lyon).

I'm afraid that't all I know. Sorry if it's not much.

Bye.


Moti had written on 06-Aug-1999

hello , its moti
Tnx very much u help me alot

i have some qurstion about some makam i saw their names and i dont know the notes... so if u can help me...

farah faza .
rahat el arwah (something close to sika).

i exercise makam  and tetracords on my viloin (that help me with quarter-tones) and i want to know another makams or tetrachords , so if u know the name and intervlas, send me please.

oh , alomost forgot.... i am programmer (alos fro the web) if u need any help with your site , or u need soe program just ask me (vc++,vb,java,asm)

bye!


I replied again on 08-Aug-1999

Dear Moti,
Those two maqams (or modes, really) are identical to another couple, only the tonic is different. Or, this is true at least in their present form, i.e. after everybody seems to adopt the European tempered scale.

Farahfaza is nahawand on G (sol): G A Bb C D Eb F# G
Rahat Elarwah is hozam on Bb- (si half bemol): Bb- C D Eb F# G A Bb-

As to your being a programmer, it seems that almost all good programmers are music fans. It seems a widespread phenomenon, really. And thanks for the proposal.

Bye.


Moti wrote on 08-Aug-1999

Hello!

tnx about your help.(your knowlage is VERY wide,did u study that professionaly?)

u know... i have so many question to ask u about music , if that alright , ill ask  a few of them sometime,ok?
 

1. when i practice the makamat , i notes something intersting:     in certain makams , u can start with different note in the scale , and start SAME makam

   for example u can start play bayyati from his 6th and play bayyato again    or with siga , or saba(i very like this tranmittion) and so on... is there names for things like that?

2. how should i tune my violin? (currently its D,G,D,G  i saw west with E,A,D,G)

3. another 2 makams i want to know their notes: gaharka, lami(???)

i found a site about turkish music that mention 1/8,3/8 tones: http://www.hinesmusic.com/Makam.html

Tnx , have a good day(or night. whatever...)


I replied on 17-Aug-1999

Dear Moti,
First, about playing a mode on one degree then starting the same mode on another degree. This is called "transposition", or "tonal modulation".

Look, the term "modulation" simply means "change". But, when you "change" from, say, Major to Minor, we're talking about "Modal Modulation", i.e. it's a change of mode. Yet when you change the tonic of the mode (from Rast on C to Rast on G, for example), we're talking about "Tonal Modulation", because it's a change of "tonality" not of "mode".

In the Western tradition, tonal modulation is more widely used than in our eastern cultures (collectively). The reason is obvious: they have only TWO scales; we have at least TWENTY TIMES THAT!!!

AS for the violin, you're adopting the adjustment everybody seems to be used to (D G D G). I would have preferred another one: D G C F. It's one whole tone below the western adjustment. My reasons:

  1. playing on two adjacent strings in ocataves becomes standard procedure;
  2. no mental strain on the player, as the differnce between all four strings is equal;
  3. all standard quarter tones remain business as usual.
I'm not the only one to advocate for this adjustment, but very few people are willing to change their established ways.

Sorry for the delay; my poor computer was in pain!!! (I'm sure you can understand this!)


Moti wrote on 15-Aug-1999

Hello

i have 2 question:
1. what is it makam (or mode) "lami"?
2. some old man told me that he know makam "shata araban" but he couldnt tell me what is it exactly, do u know?

tnx and bye


I replied on 17-Aug-1999

Dear Moti,
I'm afraid you'll have to hear me say (at least this time) my eternal (and favourite) phrase: "I don't know"... ;-)

This is my ultimate answer as to what the mode "lami" is. Someone had mentioned once that it is similar to D natural minor, or at least I think someone had. I'm not sure.

But, I couldn't allow myself to say it twice in a row!! So, here goes. "Shath Araban", or "Shadd Araban",  is the same as "Hegaz Shahnazi" but its tonic is G, not D. I mean it's like this: G Ab B C D Eb F# G. Or, at least that's what older books say. And, I need to remind you, we're talking "tempered scale" here.

Well, keep them coming. Bye.


Moti wrote on 23-Aug-1999

Hello and selam.

look what i have found.. if u have some info about them.... ;)

   1.Dastgâh-e Shur
   2.Darâmad
   3.Panjeh she'ri
   4.Kereshmeh
   5.Rahâb
   6.Oj
   7.Mollâ nâzi
   8.Naghmeh-ye avval
   9.Naghmeh-ye dovvom
  10.Zirkesh-e salmak
  11.Salmak
  12.Golriz
  13.Majles-afruz
  14.'Ozzâl
  15.Safâ
  16.Bozorg
  17.Kuchak
  18.Dobeyti
  19.Khârâ
  20.Qajar
  21.Hazin
  22.Shur-e pâin dasteh
  23.Rahâb
  24.Chahâr gusheh
  25.Moqaddameh-ye gereyli
  26.Razavi
  27.Shahnâz
  28.Moqaddameh-ye qaracheh
  29.Quaracheh
  30.Shahnâz-e kot ('asheq-kosh)
  31.Gereyli
  32.Gereyli-ye shasti
  33.Reng-e hashtari
  34.Reng-e shahr-âshub
  35.Reng-e zarb-e osul
  36.Âvaz-e Bayât-e Kord
  37.Darâmad-e avval
  38.Darâmad-e dovvom
  39.Basteh-negâr
  40.Haji hasani
  41.Darâmad-e sevvom
  42.Darâmad-e chahârom
 

   1.Âvaz-e Dashti
   2.Darâmad
   3.Oj
   4.Bidegâni
   5.Hâjiâni
   6.Gham-angiz
   7.Gilaki
   8.Âvaz-e Abu'atâ
   9.Râmkeli
  10.Darâmad
  11.Sayakhi
  12.Hejâz
  13.Basteh-negâr
  14.Chahâr pâreh
  15.Gabri
  16.Âvaz-e Bayât-e Esfehân
  17.Darâmad
  18.Jameh darân
  19.Bayât-e rajeh "va forud"
  20.Naghmeh
  21.Suz-o godâz
  22.Dastgâh-e Homâyun
  23.Chahâr-mezrâb
  24.Darâmad-e avval
  25.Darâmad-e dovvom (zang-e shotor)
  26.Mavâliân
  27.Chakâvak
  28.Tarz
  29.Bidâd
  30.Hidâd-e kot
  31.Ney davud
  32.Bâvibâ chahâr-mezrâb
  33.Suz-o godâz
  34.Abol chap
  35.Leyli o majnum
  36.Râvandi
  37.Noruz-e 'arab
  38.Noruz-e sabâ
  39.Noruz-e khârâ
  40.Nafir
  41.Farang bâ shushtari gardân
  42.Shushtari
  43.Jameh-darân
  44.Râz o niyâz
  45.Meygoli
  46.Mo'âlef
  47.Bakhtiyâri bâ mo'âlef
  48.'Ozzâl
  49.Denâsori
  50.Reng-e farah
 

   1.Dastgâh-e Navâ
   2.Chahâr-mezrâb
   3.Darâmad-e avval
   4.Darâmad-e dovvum
   5.Kereshmeh
   6.Gardunieh
   7.Naghmeh
   8.Bayât-e râjeh
   9.Hazin
  10.'Oshshâq
  11.Nahoft
  12.Gavesht
  13.'Ashirân
  14.Neyshaburak
  15.Majosli
  16.Khojasteh
  17.Malek hoseyn
  18.Hoseyn
  19.Busalik
  20.Neyriz
  21.Reng-e nastâri
  22.Reng-e navâ
  23.Dastgâh-e Segâh
  24.Chahâr-mezrâb
  25.Darâmad
  26.Naghmeh
  27.Kereshmeh
  28.Kereshmeh bâ muyeh
  29.Zang-e shotor
  30.Zâbol
  31.Basteh-negâr
  32.Muyeh
  33.Mokhâlef
  34.Hâji hasani
  35.Basteh-negâr
  36.Maghlub
  37.Naghmeh
  38.Hazin
  39.Muyeh
  40.Rahâb
  41.Masihi
  42.Shâh khatâi
  43.Takht-e tâqdis
  44.Reng-e delgoshâ
  45.Âvaz-e Afshâri
  46.Darâmad
  47.Basteh-negâr
  48.'Arâq "va forud"
 

   1.Dastgâh-e Mâhur
   2.Darâmad
   3.Kereshmeh
   4.Âvâz
   5.Moqaddameh-ye dâd
   6.Dâd
   7.Majles-afruz
   8.Khosravâni
   9.Delkesh
  10.Chahâr-mezrâb "va forud"
  11.Khâvarân
  12.Tarab-angiz
  13.Neyshâburak
  14.Nashirkhâni yâ tusi
  15.Chahâr pareh yâ morâdkhani
  16.Feyli
  17.Mâhur-e saghir
  18.Azerbâyjâni
  19.Hesâr-e mâhur yâ abol
  20.Zir-afkand
  21.Neyriz
  22.Shekasteh
  23.'Arâq
  24.Nahib
  25.Mohayyer
  26.Ashur-âvand
  27.Asfehânak
  28.Hazin
  29.Kereshmeh
  30.Zanguleh
  31.Rak-e hendi
  32.Rak-e keshmir
  33.Rak-e 'abdollâh
  34.Kereshmeh-ye râk
  35.Aafir-e râk
  36.Reng-e harbi
  37.Reng-e yek-chubeh
  38.Reng-e shalakhu
  39.Aaqi-nameh, sufi-nameh va koshteh
  40.Âvâz-e Bayât-e Tork
  41.Darâmad-e avval
  42.Dogâh
  43.Darâmad-e dovvom
  44.Darâmad-e sevvom
  45.Hâji hasani
  46.Basteh-negâr
  47.Zanguleh
  48.Khosravâni
  49.Naghmeh
  50.Feyli
  51.Shekasteh
  52.Mehrabâni
  53.Jameh-darân
  54.Mehdi zarrâbi
  55.Ruh ol-arvâh
  56.Qatâr
 

   1.Dastgâh-e Chahârgâh
   2.Darâmad-e avval
   3.Darâmad-e dovvom
   4.Darâmad-e sevvom (pish Zanguleh va Zanguleh)
   5.Darâmad-e chahârom
   6.Naghmeh
   7.Kereshmeh
   8.Kereshmeh bâ muyeh
   9.Zang-e shotor
  10.Zâbol
  11.Basteh-negâr
  12.Muyeh
  13.Forud
  14.Hesâr
  15.Hesâr qesmat-e dovvom
  16.Hesâr qesmat-e sevvom
  17.Hesâr qesmat-e chahârom
  18.Chahâr-mezrâb
  19.Pas hesâr
  20.Muyeh
  21.Mokhâlef
  22.Hâji hasani
  23.Basteh-negâr
  24.Maghlub
  25.Naghmeh
  26.Hazin
  27.Hodi
  28.Pahlavi
  29.Rajaz
  30.Mansuri
  31.Mansuri qesmat-e dovvom
  32.Mansuri qesmat-e sevvom
  33.Lezgi
  34.Matn va hashieh
  35.Reng-e shahr-âshub
  36.Dastgâh-e Râst-panjgâh
  37.Darâmad
  38.Darâmad dovvom, Zang-e shotor
  39.Zanguleh
  40.Parvâneh
  41.Khosravâni
  42.Ruh-afzâ
  43.Panjgâh
  44.Sepehr
  45.'Oshshâq
  46.Neyriz
  47.Bayât-e 'ajam
  48.Bahr-e nur
  49.Qaracheh
  50.Mobarqa'
  51.Tarz
  52.Abol chap
  53.Leyli o majnun
  54.Râvandi
  55.Noruz-e 'arab
  56.Noruz-e sabâ
  57.Noruz-e khârâ
  58.Mâvarâ on-nahr
  59.Nafir
  60.Farang


Moti wrote again on 28-Aug-1999

Hello and Selam

another modes that i dont know ,
1. rahwo (or rawa)
2. gaharaka
3. doolab(dulab) byatti

btw: did u recognized the modes in the list i gave u?


I replied on 31-Aug-1999

Dear Moti,
I had neglected some of your previous questions. Forgive me, please. So here goes the answers:
 
  1. Mode Gaharkah is usually thought of as `Agam (= major) but on F, but many insist on calling it Gaharka Misri and maintain that its E is half-flat. Actually, I can't remember any famous song in this mode. But in the Coptic (=Egyptian Christian) heritage, there exists a good number of tunes in the Gaharkah Misri variety.

  2.  
  3. In Turkey, they do use the naï, but there are other instruments of their own as well, so I can't be sure if what you heard was indeed the naï. Being a naï-player all my musical life, I can't agree with what most people think of it, namely as a sad instrument. To me, it's definitely warm and tendre, but not necessarily sad. I mean it all depends on the music itself, and on the player's style.


Bye now.


I replied again on 17-Sep-1999

Dear Moti,
I'm sorry for the late response, but I just had an unpleasant accident with my modem a week ago.

Now for your questions:

  1. I've once hear about Farahnak, but I don't really know its intervals. (I need to say "I don't know" occasionally, for fear of bad, envious eyes ;-) )

  2.  
  3. The Dulab is not a mode; it's a musical form. Usually, it's a short piece of music that can be repeated for as many times as one needs (Dulab in Arabic means "Wheel"). Traditionally, when a song had no introduction of its own, you could use just about any Dulab of the same mode and use it as an intro.

  4.  
  5. Concerning your intention of buying a Naï: it has to have all its segments of the same length. Some manufacturers glue cut segments to ensure they are equal in length, but it could be risky that way. Also, the bore should not be too thin. You should also use a "diapason" to make sure the tones are accurate.
Bye now.